** The SGA community uses the term "reparative therapy" rather than "change therapy". Their rational is that the therapy will help you repair/heal the deficits and wounds that they believe all gay men have, and thereby create a shift in your sexual orientation. I find that the general public is more familiar with the term "change therapy" and mistake "reparative therapy" for a branch of physical therapy. Ultimately the goal of this therapy IS for you to come out a different person than you went in, so I feel that "change therapy" is an accurate label. Also my computer doesn't think "reparative" is a real word.**
I truly respect those that are in change therapy. I apologize if my blog has ever given the impression that I do not. I have some deep-seated issues with the institution, but I think highly of those that turn to change therapy to find happiness. If you cannot be happy because you are attracted to your same gender, I completely respect you for taking the initiative to try to reconcile those feelings. I would not name-call, slander, or ever talk bad about those people.
I would never try to deter a man on the "Journey to Change". My thoughts, ideas and beliefs are my own and I will not push them on anyone else. **BUT, my thoughts, ideas and beliefs come from my experience with the institution and I will share them with those that will listen. I wouldn't go to an Evergreen Conference, a Fast and Testimony Meeting, or Journey into Manhood to preach my ideals. On that same note I would expect the same respect from those in change therapy. Please, do not preach your ideals on my blog, or try to force your beliefs on me if I'm not asking to hear them.
I don't really have a lot of respect for the men that run change therapy programs anymore.
My major is declared as clinical psychology. I got into this field because there was a time in my life when I was sure that I wanted to be a change therapist. I had so much respect for the men who run this program that I wanted to BE one of them.
So what changed?
In November I was still doing my course work for my major when my psych teacher took me aside and showed me my term paper. He had failed it. I had written it on change therapy, and cited all of my sources. He explained that fundamentally my paper was perfect, but that the ideas and sources reflected the concepts of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). I told him that I knew that and explained what my future career plans were. He got really concerned and told me that regardless he couldn't accept my paper because the APA (American Psychological Association) discredits NARTH, and every other branch or conversion, reparative, and change therapies. In fact NO mainstream health institution in America (American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, the National Association of School Psychologists, the American Academy of Physician Assistants, and the National Education Association) will support them; they are all critics of such therapies and consider them harmful.
He gave me the opportunity to re-write my paper. I took it and was ready to walk out, when this concerned man asked me, "do you know what priestcraft is?" He pulled out his scriptures and read a few select verses to me. Then we sat there is silence as I digested what I had heard.
I wanted Celestial Glory. I had been told that the ONLY way to obtain that was to be straight. The only way to be straight was to pay $120 a session. There was a man making a profit off of my determination to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
I suppose that I do still give these men respect though. I'm not trying to hurt their businesses or steal away their clientele. I have no admiration or esteem for them though.
In the end, we all try to pick the path that we feel is best for us. Naturally, sometimes that leads us to feel that people, who pick other paths, have chosen the wrong one. However, even if you feel that I'm evil there is no use in us debating, or trying to indoctrinate each other. Can't we all just show a little respect?
I would never try to deter a man on the "Journey to Change". My thoughts, ideas and beliefs are my own and I will not push them on anyone else. **BUT, my thoughts, ideas and beliefs come from my experience with the institution and I will share them with those that will listen. I wouldn't go to an Evergreen Conference, a Fast and Testimony Meeting, or Journey into Manhood to preach my ideals. On that same note I would expect the same respect from those in change therapy. Please, do not preach your ideals on my blog, or try to force your beliefs on me if I'm not asking to hear them.
I don't really have a lot of respect for the men that run change therapy programs anymore.
My major is declared as clinical psychology. I got into this field because there was a time in my life when I was sure that I wanted to be a change therapist. I had so much respect for the men who run this program that I wanted to BE one of them.
So what changed?
In November I was still doing my course work for my major when my psych teacher took me aside and showed me my term paper. He had failed it. I had written it on change therapy, and cited all of my sources. He explained that fundamentally my paper was perfect, but that the ideas and sources reflected the concepts of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). I told him that I knew that and explained what my future career plans were. He got really concerned and told me that regardless he couldn't accept my paper because the APA (American Psychological Association) discredits NARTH, and every other branch or conversion, reparative, and change therapies. In fact NO mainstream health institution in America (American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, the National Association of School Psychologists, the American Academy of Physician Assistants, and the National Education Association) will support them; they are all critics of such therapies and consider them harmful.
He gave me the opportunity to re-write my paper. I took it and was ready to walk out, when this concerned man asked me, "do you know what priestcraft is?" He pulled out his scriptures and read a few select verses to me. Then we sat there is silence as I digested what I had heard.
I wanted Celestial Glory. I had been told that the ONLY way to obtain that was to be straight. The only way to be straight was to pay $120 a session. There was a man making a profit off of my determination to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
I suppose that I do still give these men respect though. I'm not trying to hurt their businesses or steal away their clientele. I have no admiration or esteem for them though.
In the end, we all try to pick the path that we feel is best for us. Naturally, sometimes that leads us to feel that people, who pick other paths, have chosen the wrong one. However, even if you feel that I'm evil there is no use in us debating, or trying to indoctrinate each other. Can't we all just show a little respect?
Personally, I view organizations like NARTH, Exodus International, and even Evergreen International, as organizations run primarily by straight people saying things that straight people like to hear.
ReplyDeletePriestcraft. You nailed it, Austin.
ReplyDeleteI have gone after the Evergreen types more than once on my own blog. A friend recently pointed out that such organizations no doubt are filled with people who are sincerely trying to work through personal issues and I shouldn't blame them for it, even if I disagree with their choice. This was very wise counsel.
He helped me to clarify my own thoughts and I realized that my beef wasn't with those individuals, it was--as you say, Austin--with those who prey on them for profit, holding out what I believe to be false promises of hope. I don't think anything has ever upset me more in this life than that, regardless of the details: people who use deception to take advantage of others' good faith in order to make a profit.
Wow, you had an AWESOME teacher.
ReplyDeleteAustin, I really appreciate this post. I was called out recently by someone who thought I shouldn't be linking to blogs of people who don't share the same beliefs that I hold to.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I like being informed and challenged in my thoughts. It helps me to think through issues and come to my own conclusions.
Second, we share the challenges and blessings of being gay in a culture that is not eager to embrace us. I feel a connection to others with same gender attraction and have come to respect the many ways that others have chosen to reconcile their sexual orientation with their religious background.
My life choices may not sync with others, but I respect others agency and love to learn from those willing to share their stories.
Thanks again for your thoughts and great blog.
Brilliant! I'm without words.
ReplyDeleteYou know I love you, however if these men are practicing priestcraft then the entire world of clinical psych is priestcraft, all counselors are charging a fee to help others find some sort of spiritual improvement. If these men are knowingly decieving clients let the Lord judge them, after all he judges according on the hearts intent. That said i doubt these men have are evil business men just out to make money. they could have made a lot more money in a different field of psych.
ReplyDelete-Strong Black Women.
That was supposed to be signed
ReplyDelete-(Strong Black Woman), my bad it's late.
Of course I love you SBW :) I would argue though that clinical psych doesn't need to be priestcraft. Counselors should be charging a fee to help improve a patients mental health. Not spiritual. I opinion is that psych should remain secular. Spiritual guidance should remain in the hands of those who the client believes are called by God.
ReplyDeleteNow I don't know to what degree these men recognize what they are doing is wrong. I'll let the Lord judge that. Evil? I probably wouldn't call them evil since they full-heartily believe they are doing good. They see there is a market for their services and so they provide them. Theoretically there is nothing wrong with that. Its just:
1)the Religious-based tactics that they use to convince people that they need their services.
2)the way that they try to help people find peace of mind without affirming them.
I'm not sure they could have made more money in any other field though.
My therapist is highly respected by his colleagues and only had his LPC. No doctorate. He doesn't deal with insurance companies; cash only. $120 per 50min session. More clients than he can handle, and booked out 2 months in advance.
That's pretty good money.
Thanks for letting me clarify a little bit.
- :) I love that you read my blog SBW.
I hope to spend some time with you before you leave AZ.
I check in on occasion ;).
ReplyDelete-SBW
Austin - I think you're missing the true value of organizations like Evergreen. In my experience, Evergreen proved to be the best gay Mormon dating program ever invented! I had a great time hooking up with guys I met at Evergreen -- until they finally kicked me out of the program. But for two years...bliss!
ReplyDeleteReading this blog of yours about "change therapy" made me want to write about something I have been thinking about. Maybe you'll find it interesting if you are into psychology. Maybe you wont. Hopefully I dont offend you either way. Gay people will say "I am gay because thats the way I am." I want to give an example of something I go through everyday, comparing it to your tendency to be gay.
ReplyDeleteSometimes in the paper I will read an article about someone that is not white committing a crime. In my head I think "stupid mexican/black person/asian, that is so typical of them" Then I think, "wow, that's really racsist of me." Can you believe I would think that to myself? Its a horrible thing, really. However, I would never face-to-face discriminate against a person of another race. I overcome it. Even so, those racial tendencies still exist inside of me. I suppose the only way to really get them to go away would be fasting and prayer and insane work on my part.
Now, Im reading this great book "7 habits of highly effective people" which is teaching me many great things, one of those is that "you are not your thoughts." I can control who I am, I can be proactive. This seems to fit perfectly with the things I experience. I can choose to overcome it, because I can make my own decisions.
I am not sure if people by nature experience "racial tendencies" like I do, cause Ive never really asked. But I sure know that Im not going to let them turn into my actions or let them define me in any way.
My question to you, and I am honestly wondering, (I have no idea how "change therapy" works, and sorry if this sounds like I am giving you therapy) is why would you think gay tendencies would be any different? Because in my mind, giving in to those tendencies and declaring yourself gay would be like giving in (i.e. saying "I have no control") I imagine myself declaring "I must be a racist, I need to accept my racist ways" and then going off and doing rascist things.
By the way, you dont need to contrast it to racism either, it could be any part of your character that is "undesirable." (impatience, anger etc) The reason I say "undesirable" with you is because apparently you still think the church is true, or at least the gospel, and thats what the gospel teaches. No one said that anyone COULD NOT go to the celestial kingdom with gay tendencies. Its a sin if you act on them.
I would be interested to know your thoughts. Thanks.
Anonymous: Thanks for your questions. First of all, let me explain why gay tendencies are not struggles and burdens that God gives/lets us have. I'll use racism for example since you suggested it, but it applies to all sorts of trials that we may have. If, hypothetically, I could reach inside of you and take "the racism component" out of you, you would still be a fully functional person. And that would be the end of the trial.
ReplyDeleteIf you could remove "the gay component" from me, I would be missing part of myself. I would have sex drive at all. I would then be void of my homosexual piece, and still be missing the heterosexual piece that I've never had.
If I were a bisexual, then I would understand what you are saying.
But I am gay, and even if there was a way to remove it from me, that would NOT be the end of the trial/ struggle/ burden.
The struggle would be to live a celibate life like the Church suggests. The burden would be to sit by as I watch my siblings marry and have children while I stay lonely forever. It would be a struggle to watch other men except callings that I will never have because I am unmarried. It would be a burden to go through life alone, and still question if I can make it to the Celestial Kingdom without a wife. It is a struggle that because I wasn’t blessed with the attraction to women, I’m expected to never experience the deep love and commitment of a marriage. It is a burden that I would have no one to testify of my life, and my life would be empty, with no one to live for.
What is the point of such “sacrifices”? God is love. We are here on Earth to become like him. Therefore I cannot accept that he would want those struggles and burdens to fill my life, and have no end, even in the life to come.
I know that Christ does expect us, his people, to change and give up parts of ourselves. Attributes such as pride, greed, (superior attitudes towards those of a different race) or material things such as wealth are all able to be sacrificed. However, just as God wouldn’t ask a man to stop being white skinned he doesn’t ask me to stop being gay.
I’m not void of sacrifices though. I am still a normal human being. I have already had to lose friends, but that I have already seen the blessings in that sacrifice. I have to be cautious of expressing my affections in public, in fear of becoming a victim of gay-bashing. I will happily give up my carnal desires to be exclusive with my spouse. The list continues on but by no means have I taken the “easy-way” out by accepting myself for who I am. These sacrifices have purpose though.
I hope that I have been able to convey my thoughts an feelings in a respectful and clear way.
Thanks for your sincerity,
Austin
why would you think gay tendencies would be any different?
ReplyDeleteTo add to what Austin said,
Something like racism is a state of mind resulting from cultural influences. Sexual orientation, on the other hand, is a physiological condition. When you have racist thoughts, your body does not experience a physiological reaction.
While you may be able to learn to control your thoughts that go along with sexual orientation and, to a certain degree, perhaps even the physiological reaction, it does not change the underlying physiological attraction. This is why reparative therapy has such a low success rate - because, ultimately, the thoughts and feelings will resurface, often with a vengeance after having been suppressed for some period of time. My personal opinion is that people who claim to have overcome their homosexuality were probably not super gay to begin with. They were probably closer to the middle of the Kinsey scale (i.e. bisexual).
Anonymous, I assume you are heterosexual - do you think it's possible for you to overcome your heterosexuality? Do you think you could reach a state where you no longer desire the opposite sex? Where the very thought of intimacy with a member of the opposite sex was revolting? Where the thought of intimacy with a member of your same gender would feel natural and normal?
Abelard enigma- That last part you said was a really good point. I really could not say I would be capable of doing that.
ReplyDeleteAustin- I understand what you mean. You have obviously thought this out well. Let me pose another point. This is in a gospel perspective, by the way. This won't make sense really to anyone who isnt LDS.
Remember those conference talks where they mention there is an exception to many things? For example, we say in the church, "you need to get married to go to the Celestial kingdom." But then they say, not everyone will get married in this life. Obviously, God isnt going to punish those who can't get married. There are some girls (and guys) that are honestly so unattractive they won't get married. I have a friend whose face is paralyzed. It causes him to look a little different. He honestly might not get married, and he has accepted that. He could be lonely (as far as romantic interactions go) his entire life.
I want to contrast this to anyone in the church being gay. You have convinced me that being gay is definitely an innate part of your nature, and you arent attracted to women at all. You seem very honest about this. I also took note of your statement of "gay tendencies are not struggles and burdens that God gives/lets us have." I would like to respectfully disagree-
What if (and thats a big WHAT IF, because I am not getting revelation for you obviously) your big trial in life was to go through life without being married or experiencing sex etc etc. It seems cruel, yes. However, many people dont get that privilege either. (like my friend) What if your trial was to go through life while living with this, and you just had to make the most of it? I could see that being an extremely difficult trial, but a trial nonetheless. People often live with extremely difficult hardships. (have you seen "the tree man" on youtube?)
You seem to understand well that you are one of God's children, and he has some great stuff in store for you. I hope whatever you end up doing, you are following the spirit. Thanks again for your comments.
What if ... your big trial in life was to go through life without being married or experiencing sex etc
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right that there are some people who will never be married or experience intimacy due to physical appearance, infirmity, personality (maybe they're just a big jerk), or whatever. But, these people learn to accept their lot in life because they really don't have any other choice.
Someone like Austin has a choice. He has the desire, appearance, personality, etc. to attract a mate - just not one of the female variety.
So, while we may disagree on this - I really think the example you gave is apples and oranges.
Now there are people like Austin who make the choice to live a celibate life. And these people are to be honored. But, just because some are able doesn't mean that everyone should be able. There are a lot of other factors involved, such as amount of libido - it's not the same in everyone.
Anonymous, I don't know how old you are nor your marital status; but, assuming you are married and fairly young - if you lost your wife, would you be able to go the rest of your life celibate? Or, do you think in all likelihood you would remarry if the opportunity arises?
I think there are a couple of other important things to remember.
ReplyDelete"There are some girls (and guys) that are honestly so unattractive they won't get married."
This is true that there are people that will go to their graves unmarried. HOWEVER, never do they ever have to shut out the option of marriage. They can keep hoping for Mr./Mrs. Right to come along. They do not lose the privilege of getting to experience intimacy and deep commitment. There is always a valid hope for them.
To follow the churches advice, would be to live with no hope and with a "trial" that yields no benefit.
Another point is that I do still have the option to marry a woman. I could find a wife if I wanted to. There are plenty of girls that would marry me; even girls who know that I'm gay. But beside the fact that I find girls icky, there are several other reasons I do not want to marry a woman. Being unfaithful isn’t one of my legitimate concern. If I were to enter into a marriage, with a man or a woman, I would be faithful because of the commitment that that marriage is. I really do understand that love is not an emotion but work. The emotion is bliss; the intense willingness to do anything, and everything it takes, is love.
(This next part is personal to me, and I mean NO offense to any gay men that are married to women) That is why I’m sure that I could make a marriage with a woman work, but I know that I would not be as happy as I could be. I know that she would not be as happy as she could be. I would neither be fulfilled or satisfied, and conversely, neither would she. More than that, I know that my Heavenly Father does NOT want me to enter into any relationship with a woman. Forgive me for not sharing my private spiritual experience, but I tell you from the bottom of my heart that it is the most clear and definite revelation that my Father in Heaven has ever given me.
The last thing is that I am not unfortunate looking, physically handicapped, or mentally challenged. There is nothing that makes me an inferior to any other young man. I am totally normal. I have the same, if not larger, capacity to love and be loved. When did pure, honest, and harmless love become a struggle or a trial? God is love. It doesn't make sense for him to give me the ability to love and be happy (which is why we are here on earth) and then tell me this gift is not to use, just hold and ignore. In why would the thing I'm here to gain, be a struggle.
well, when someone says they received revelation, you cant argue with that. Thanks for the interesting conversation and for not responding to my questions negatively. I feel like I have gained a greater perspective of the topic.
ReplyDeleteI mean NO offense to any gay men that are married to women
ReplyDeleteNone taken :)
Although my wife and I both believe we have built a life together - a life worth keeping. It's still difficult ... for both of us. And, it's not fair to her or me that we don't share mutual attraction towards each other. It seems to be working for us - but it's not a life I could recommend for others.
Austin, you are wise beyond your years. Whatever path you choose, I only hope for your happiness. And, I believe that is what God wants for you too.
And,anonymous, I appreciate your thought provoking questions. I believe you want what's best for Austin as well - and it's only in the nitty gritty details where we may find disagreement.
Hi. I'm LDS. I'm straight as an arrow.
ReplyDeleteYou are the bomb. Keep it up. The stance of the Church against homosexuality is changing slowly but surely. As our generation(I'm 23) grows into the leadership positions of the church we will fix the culturally driven "revelations" found in the sociology of the Church. They need to at least admit that people are truly "born that way."
I was born straight. You were born gay.
As far as I'm concerned, you have just as much right to "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness" as I do.
I find it intriguing that the LDS church a minority group just a few years ago, is NOW speaking out against minority groups. Now that they aren't being abused, they are the abusers. It reminds me of the wimp who got beat up junior high who goes on steroids for three years. Then when he is big, he starts bullying everyone else the same way he was bullied.
THANK YOU...